By now most of you will probably have seen the story of the extraordinary blow-up taking place between staff of Science Fiction World and their boss. If not, you can read it all here. I’m mentioning it for two reasons.
Firstly the Chinese are claiming that the magazine is “dying” because circulation has slumped from 150,000 to 130,000. That, I suspect, means that they still have more total readers than all English-language printed SF fiction magazines put together.
And secondly, people have started writing to the Hugo Awards asking for help in saving the magazine. These people appear to be Westerners, not Chinese. They clearly have no idea what sort of rich and powerful political organization is behind the Hugos (ha!). Also I suspect that campaigning by foreigners will be about as much help to the SFW editors as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
In times like these we really get to see how really (and sadly) apart we are from each other, not only culturally, but also in space.
How long, I wonder, will we have to wait until we see a WorldCon in Beijing?
In this context .. ‘ campaigning by foreigners will be about as much help to the SFW editors as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. ‘ we are all of us foreigners.
The “Worldcon ” is pretty much of a misnomer .. if I have the term right .. since it is mostly English Speaking and Anglo American centered and even at that there are those of us .. all right ME .. who are doubtful of the merits of,say, the many sub divisions of the Hugo Award and the politics thereof.
Long ago I sat in a corridor party .. only time I’ve ever been thrown out of a corridor, but that’s another story .. and listened as a group of Yugoslavian fans – who planned on bidding for a Eurocon, and this rather before Yugoslavia collapsed – kindly explained to me what would happen once Tito died and the Really nasty Serbs emerged from the undergrowth.. or The Battle Belt as they called it. And yet they were still Ambitious to host the Eurocon and Maybe even a Worldcon!
I wasn’t able to fully follow the reasoning behind this since they insisted on pouring various forms of vodka down my throat and thus my Focus was, Er, un-focused, as it were but they were ever so sincere as indeed are the various bidders for the Worldcon no-matter what their abilities might be or what modern hazards might present themselves .. at one time the prospect of an Islamist Terrorist attack on a UK Worldcon would have sounded like pure … Science Fiction? And yet here we are in the once Dreamed of and far distant 21st century and people are still behaving as if we were in the mid-20th century where Chinese and Indian Sub Continent and even those Pesky Europeans ..apart from Jules Verne .. were unheard of save as being a far distant people of whom we knew nothing.
Still both .. Worldcon Japan …
http://www.nippon2007.us/
and .. WorldCon in Beijing? .. as proposed … suggested/hinted upon by Cheryl in an ever so subtle sort of manner are actually much safer than a UK Worldcon, and the WorldCon in Beijing would be likely to be subsidized by the PR of China ..who would just love the networking possibilities and the future pathways into PR of China being the Inheritors of US of Aliens throne as Cultural World Power.
I have several program Ideas for the ‘ World Con in Beijing.’
It remains only to persuade the Americans that this would be a Good Idea .. and in my opinion the Only person suitable for this Role is … Cheryl.
Aren’t you glad that I suggested this rather than You?
Yep, and now it’s only Fantasy — yours. You are ascribing an importance to Worldcon massively out of proportion to the way the rest of the world views it. No terrorist would be interested. Even if successful, people would more likely laugh at the result, horrific as this sounds.
Kevin,
Way back when I stood in a service area beneath the Brighton Metropole hotel in my capacity of Tech Manager of Seacon 84 The Eurocon. I joked to the hotel staff and my colleagues there assembled that this would be the ideal location for a later-day Guy Fawkes to attack a political gathering in the ball room immediately above with something a little more modern than barrels of black powder. Lots of people did have access to that service room .. I was interested since it was the source of the TV systems feeds throughout the hotel.
My harmless little joke became somewhat less funny when later that year the IRA attacked the hotel that we were using as an overflow hotel ….
http://images.google.co.uk/images?rlz=1T4GGLJ_enGB226GB226&q=Brighton+bombing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=Z4yuS5GHNqay0gT7qtCPDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQsAQwAw
” Yep, and now it’s only Fantasy — yours ” Don’t you wish that it were! Do you really believe that terrorists are idiots? That I’m the only person who can recognize an ideal target? The Glaswegian target is just over the river from the BBCs Scottish headquarters ..
http://www.glasgowarchitecture.co.uk/bbc.htm
Lots of media coverage then.
9/11 was a fantasy until somone executed it … as was the Brighton Bombing.
The possibility should not be ignored in the pious hope that it will never happen. Try to put yourself in the mindset of Islamist Terrorists .. maximum effect for minimum effort.
” Laugh at the result “? Are you serious? Are people laughing at the result of 9/11 or at the Brighton bombing?
No, people wouldn’t laugh at a successful attack on hundreds of Americans in the heartland of their principle allies at an event called The Worldcon and I assure you that I’m not laughing at the prospect.
For pete’s sake, the reason the Metropole was bombed was the Conservative Party conference, featuring Maggie Thatcher, was going on, not because Seacon was there three months earlier (or Worldcon 3 years later.)
Of course not, but in neither case were a bunch of science fiction fans the target.
The Olympics are a viable, high-profile target, yes. The big international economic conferences, yes. A bunch of science fiction fans? I’d ask you if you were kidding, but you’re obviously dead serious. And I’m serious that I completely dismiss your delusion that the Worldcon is a sufficiently high-profile event that the terrorists would target it. Oh, sure, there’s always the random chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the idea that a Worldcon is actually a meaningful target is completely laughable.
If you’re right, then we’d better raze every auditorium, hotel, arena, etc. to the ground, shut down the Underground and rail systems, ground all airplanes, close off the motorways, require advance permits for all travel of any sort, and ban all gatherings of more than two people without Official Government Approval. In short, we should adopt the government model of the world of V, only nastier and with big sharp teeth.
Stay home, dig a hole, climb into it, and pull it in after you. The terrorists have beaten you. They’ve won. You actually think that the World Science Fiction Convention is a target that terrorists would seek out. I laugh in your face at this thought.
In case you didn’t notice, the previous version of your paranoia you posted in a different post here was derided as some paranoid fantasy of some Delusional Paranoid American.
I agree with Kevin. The Worldcon is NOT a high profile event to even have any terrorist group even look at it twice. Heck even Comic Con/Dragon Con/and name your large anime con here are not even close. Maybe Comic Con, as tons of media covers it – sometimes even live.
The only way anything woulc/could ever happen is if someone did something stupid to gain the attention of the local police. But of course that is WAY different than a terrorist would target any type of convention.
And so far since the 9/11 attacks, each and evry BIG name event since (Super Bowl, World Series, World Cup, Olympics, name your big sporting/polictal event here) has HAD tons and tons of security that cost tons of money. IMHO, the terrorists have (I hope) shown that they are not interested in attacking big name events.
They are more interested in getting a person on a plane with a bomb in his shoe, or some chemicals in his underwear – those events have disrupted the casual flyiers than anyone could have ever thought. Attacking the Worldcon, in the UK, or Tokyo or Reno is not even close to their list of stuff to do.
If it were, to paraphrase here, then each and ever convention out there would either have to shut down its activities, or hire such crazy amounts of security that the price to get into anything would prohibit anyone from attending it.
Someone said …
” In case you didn’t notice, the previous version of your paranoia you posted in a different post here was derided as some paranoid fantasy of some Delusional Paranoid American. ”
Er, NO, I seem to have missed that ..but then I have been rather busy elsewhere.
” Delusional Paranoid American ” Eh .. nope .. I’m as English as they come. You missed my posts mention of the Brighton Bombing and my ,implied, failure to be sufficiently .. how was it termed ‘ paranoid ‘?
But,then, I suppose that I could have been an American working as Tech Manager at that event.
It’s not that, as you say, Kevin that ” …. in neither case were a bunch of science fiction fans the target. ”
Forget about the ‘ Science Fiction fans ‘ as a target … It’s that a bunch of high profile AMERICANS in the media as both audience and Authors – and thus readily attracting attention by the media – are involved in, appearing at, and conducting an event that has hardly any security worthy of the name and this in the UK.
” The Olympics are a viable, high-profile target, yes. The big international economic conferences, yes. A bunch of science fiction fans? I’d ask you if you were kidding, but you’re obviously dead serious. And I’m serious that I completely dismiss your delusion that the Worldcon is a sufficiently high-profile event that the terrorists would target it. Oh, sure, there’s always the random chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the idea that a Worldcon is actually a meaningful target is completely laughable. ”
The Olympics will have the highest possible level of security cover as would have, say, a political conference. Such events DRAIN police resource from all over the UK.
By all means dismiss my suggeston on rational grounds but please don’t dismiss it on the grounds that Worlcon isn’t a meaningful target.
You are understating the importance of a Worldcon by a considerable margin. Worldcon is easily accessible and the Worldcon is a BIG Name event… and if you think that an event that features so many writers and media people with an International profile isn’t a BIG event in the UK then I humbly submit to you that you are wrong.
Tom said ..
” or Tokyo or Reno is not even close to their list of stuff to do.”
Tokyo would be extremely difficult to access on account of the nature of Japanese society and the level of it’s security provision. Reno was in mainland USA the last time that I looked and thus fades away against the sheer number of desirable American targets within the USA, and the fact that, as I understand it, American Convention venues are stiff with security and the UK s near equivalent , but much smaller, venues simply aren’t in the same security provision league in most of our cities save for those rare occasions when political conventions are staged around the UK. Unless convention/conference venues are within London’s Ring Of Steel that is.
Of course a Worldcon in or around central London would partake of the High Security afforded to any event in that location and so would be fairly secure. Brighton would be likely to be a safe venue too for obvious reasons.
As for bombs in Shoes or over a Scottish town or wherever .. that was yesterday and as Targets are protected and access to them limited alternative targets become more desirable .. that’s just the way that it works.
This is not to say that a Worldcon couldn’t be staged in the UK because of it’s manifest desirability as a Target, it’s just that the organizers have to be far more professional in their approach and do need to involve the UKs police and Security services at a very early stage in their planning. This is very simple ..
If the UKs bid for Worlcon can state that they have consulted Police and Security agencies in the UK at the the highest level and that a Named Senior Officer in the same is on record as saying that he/she is satisfied that the security provisions being made for a high profile Arts Event involving hundreds of Americans in the Heartland of the UK are adequate then of course I am trounced forthwith…and heartily glad to be so.
I don’t cower in the face of terrorism as has been kindly suggested but I do believe in taking precautions rather than just hoping for the best.
Come now Kevin ..I don’t laugh in your face at your naivety, and indeed I could almost bring myself to envy you your innocence. Why do you … ‘ .. laugh in your face at this thought. ‘
I don’t laugh in your face just because you chose to ignore the reality of the world as it is.
No, I didn’t miss it. You continue to misunderstand.
Your fellow British fans read your paranoia and insistence that a Worldcon would be a High Profile Target and dismissed you as a Paranoid American.
Read the other replies. Brighton wasn’t bombed because a bunch of American SF fans and authors were there; it was bombed because a bunch of British politicians were there. If there had been a Worldcon there that weekend, there wouldn’t have been a bombing that weekend.
If anything, hotels scared of terrorist incidents should be happy to have us there, because we’re about as likely to be targeted as a model railroaders’ convention or a stamp collectors’ conference.
I only wish that Worldcon really was as important in the broader scheme of things as you seem to think it is. You may not be aware of it, but the Worldcon wasn’t even important to the British publishing industry when it was in the UK, let alone the broader “mundane” world. You think I’m kidding? We couldn’t get the UK publishers to pay attention to Worldcon even with their own authors nominated for Hugo Awards, because they didn’t consider it important enough.
I predict that any Worldcon committee that went to the police saying “We’re the World Science Fiction Convention, so we’re likely to be a High Profile Terrorist Target” would be met with rolled eyes and be told to go away and stop wasting the police’s time.
You appear to be so scared of the terrorists that I’m surprised you ever set foot outside your house.
Because it’s laughable. The idea that Worldcon would actually be a High Profile, Olympics/World Cup-style High Profile Event is absurd on its face. We can’t even get the media to cover our event as anything other than “Lookit the people in the funny costumes,” and you seem to think that the Terrorists are making plans that would target us because there would be lots of American SF/F authors there.
If you were one of the nut-case lunatic survivalist nativist separatists holed up in a compound in Wyoming with your stockpile of guns against the Big Bad Enemy Coming To Get You, you couldn’t get any wackier. Your paranoia makes you look like a fool. Nobody is going to take you seriously.
You, sir, are a crackpot.
Arnold:
You are understating the importance of a Worldcon by a considerable margin. Worldcon is easily accessible and the Worldcon is a BIG Name event… and if you think that an event that features so many writers and media people with an International profile isn’t a BIG event in the UK then I humbly submit to you that you are wrong.
As someone who has been heavily involved in promoting Worldcon, I can very confidently say that is totally delusional. No one except us cares.
Lets hope that you are right Cheryl but I do hold to my argument which I see as standing on it’s own merits.
I think that there could be a confusion of terms here in as much as that which is important as a potential target isn’t necessarily considered to be all that important as an Arts Event by the British arts establishment. I haven’t been active in Con organization for many years now of course but when I was I always found that fans were deeply reluctant to think of cons as being arts events and did rather lean on the old comfortable assumption that we were despised but noble and rebellious outsiders and thus scorned by the establishment. Doubtless things have changed a lot since way back then, and certainly science fiction and fantasy are much more mainstream in the media these days than they ever were a couple of decades ago.
Setting aside the contentious subject of security for the moment.
Cheryl, you said …If copy and paste will work on this thing ..
‘As someone who has been heavily involved in promoting Worldcon, I can very confidently say that is totally delusional. No one except us cares. ‘
Hum ..it didn’t highlight it but that is doubtless down to my incompetence.
I’ll admit to being puzzled by that remark in so far as I would have thought that that even in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression there would be more interest than you imply that you have attracted but then I don’t know who you have approached or for what. If it’s a question of direct financial support, that is to say real MONEY then that was always a problem even way back then and I found that the only practical way around the problem was to save money that would otherwise be dedicated to to,say, equipment hire by borrowing equipment as material support. Things do change but even in these fraught times the principle probably still holds good.
Back to the original problem.
I’d only be repeating myself if I went over it again as against Kevin’s argument and I doubt whether that would take us anywhere.
It’s not that I don’t appreciate the merits of the belief that they wouldn’t attack little old us and thus we needn’t worry, and certainly don’t need to take expensive security precautions or frighten potential convention supporters and or attendees. Rather it’s that I don’t believe that it’s worth the risk of taking a chance on our supposed unimportance.
On policing and on our -UK – police and security services not taking such events as a British Worlcon as being potential high profile targets seriously I can tell you that you are wrong in this and such possibilities are taken very seriously by police and security services in the UK.
Truly I’m not running away from an argument, Kevin, but our perspectives diverge so greatly I doubt whether they are capable of compromise and certainly not in this particular forum given the strain on my typing fingers .
Now I must go and have medical things done to me so I may be gone for some time hence the length of this post. … Sorry about the weight of my commentary Cheryl.
A UK Worldcon, if it takes place, will be held either in the SECC or in the Excel Centre in London. These are both big conference venues. They hold major events every week. Many of them are considerably bigger than Worldcon.
A large convention center will, of course, have a relationship with the police. All events that take place there will be carefully monitored. That’s one of many reasons why conventions are required to use the facilities own security people as well as their own.
To suggest that Worldcon is somehow a bigger and more important event than all of the other events that are hosted at these venues is, I’m afraid, ridiculous. The Excel, for example, is home to the MCM Comic Expo that attracts movie stars and has an attendance more than 6 times that of any UK Worldcon.
So really, while I’m sure that the police keep a watching brief on all such events, if we were to go to them and suggest that Worldcon was in any way exceptional, we would be laughed at.
“You are understating the importance of a Worldcon by a considerable margin. Worldcon is easily accessible and the Worldcon is a BIG Name event… and if you think that an event that features so many writers and media people with an International profile isn’t a BIG event in the UK then I humbly submit to you that you are wrong.”
Define “big,” and you may not have much left to argue. If you don’t define it, you’re arguing over something undefined. This is rarely useful.
Specifically, either there are a significant number of other events in Britain that draw around, or more than, say, 3,000 Americans to one location (that isn’t surrounded by tons of security), or there aren’t.
If there aren’t, Arnold’s at least has an argument. If there are, Arnold is indisputably wrong.
I’d be very very surprised if there aren’t over, say, fifteen other places or events that take place in Britain every, oh, six years, that don’t draw at least an equal number of Americans.
I’d be surprised if there weren’t that many such events each year.
But I’d put the ball in Arnold’s court to come up with figures and cites to support his claim. It seems to be a matter of fact to settle, rather than opinion.
“I predict that any Worldcon committee that went to the police saying ‘We’re the World Science Fiction Convention, so we’re likely to be a High Profile Terrorist Target’ would be met with rolled eyes and be told to go away and stop wasting the police’s time.”
Speaking as someone who has, in fact, been in charge of security, among other things, at two separate Worldcons, at one of which we had an active bomb threat by phone, and at the other of which we had written threats (made at the GOH, who demanded we have the bomb squad search his RV), I can testify that it takes a bit of argument to get the police to take the latter seriously, though they will send an officer with dog after some conversation, and that when you have an oral bomb threat (Chicon IV, to be specific), they will in fact be interested.
I wouldn’t, however, expect more than that kind of cursory response absent more convincing threats. And these were cases, of course, of actual threats, rather than of the entirely different case of the committee proactively thinking they were under threat of terrorism by someone. (Absent inviting Salman Rushdie, or an equivalent case, the idea that Islamists, say, would think a science fiction convention, per se, would make a particular point if chosen as a target, seems unsupported by any evidence in Islamist writing or activity.)
Jeez, forgot my original point, which was that I hadn’t heard a thing about the Chinese mag situation, and was fascinated: thanks, Cheryl!
I really can’t provide specific intelligence, Gary, and intend to refrain from digging around about those events that also initiated great events on too little intelligence information.
In my own defense I will say that I too have been involved in Security at various events .. though not principally in Fandom .. and I do know, or rather am convinced, that it is better to go too far with safety and security than not far enough. I have stood in front of so called professionals in a Theater that fell to my charge and said .. ‘Right Then, you Blokes are paid Professionals in Health and Safety and I am but a mere Technician, albeit one who has written a VERY awkward document that is now on record and which may well be leaked to the Powers That Be, and wouldn’t that be unfortunate ?’ …This back in the days when you had to type the same with an IBM Selectric and copious use of snopake.
SO, I said… in my first Scenario .. ‘ Come let us walk together .. the Bodies would pile up Here! Am I Wrong ! PLEASE tell me that I’m WRONG! ‘ And, Lo the Chief Suit, of the Committee of Suits did Spoke Saying .. ‘ No, that Seems Reasonable to Me ‘ .. and thus I did proceed through two other possibilities with the final one being .. ” You are aware that the Alteration to the Exit doors that you have underway with the doors opening inward … nods to ‘uble Carpenter at the back of the crowed .. has been Illegal since the Victoria Hall Disaster that took place just down the Road ? ” And got the first signs of doubt from the Creature …
http://www.wearsideonline.com/the_victoria_hall_disaster.html
And at the end of my humble request for wisdom I asked in moderate tones .. ” SO WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !! ” And the Chief Suit smiled smugly and said ..’ Because We’ve Been Told To ‘
Afterward I investigated in an informal -but enraged – sort of way and I discovered that he was so smug because he had a Better Job to go to with his then companies chief competitor. I afterward did my best to ensure that his professional carrier would be a little more interesting.
Afterward my employers did do it my way and at Great Cost since it was on Record and in Writing and it wasn’t worth the risk to ones career.. oh how the Executive did love me.
I don’t trust to Luck but would rather play to Caution and double check even on Professional Advice. And I do say that whilst the cops do indeed get it wrong from time to time it is usually because they care too much rather than that they care too little … apart from bent cops that is and gaudy knows they will always be with us.
Sorry if this is a little incoherent and over rapidly typed I would, and do, say that a WORLDCON in LONDON a few years hence would be the most desirable of options in the UK as partaking of one of the Toughest Security Screening Systems in the World and being in one of the most enchantingly desirable Tourist locations in the World .. yes I know you might prefer not to think of yourselves as being Innocent Tourists but, well .. someone has to.
It doesn’t do to be too complacent .. as the Russians discovered the other day .. but LONDON is a really good choice and if the UK bidding Committee has pulled it off then they have done really well.
One other comment: “The magazine hosted the Annual Conference of the World Science Fiction Association in 1991….”
Obviously they mean the old “World SF” organization of pros that Brian Aldiss and others had going for a while.
Interesting piece on Chinese sf from a while ago here, I thought.
With regard to Arnold’s question about the possibility of having a Worldcon in Beijing, or elsewhere in China, I would note that (a) there would probably have to be significant involvement of local Chinese fans to get the con organized, and (b) I suspect that many fans from the rest of the world would be concerned if the con committee was subject to control by a committee responsible to the Chinese Communist Party, as is the situation for the editor of Science Fiction World.
That’s in addition to concerns about censorship and human rights issues in the country. I could be wrong, but I think it would be hard to win a Worldcon bid if the answer to “Who has the authority to replace the con chair?” includes “the Communist Party.”
I know, I know .. its an Idealization born of those days in which before .. about 10 years ago .. I retired through ill health from the,lower ..Technical Support .. realms of British Higher Education and I really enjoyed the appreciation of Chinese Students who did applaud politely at my modest presentations on Presentation Technique .. the Best way to Do it is To DO it as it were .. and in one instance presented me with a Painting /Drawing Calligraphy of poems by …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai
Whilst my academic colleges, who were nominally in Charge, did but say that ..’ IF I tried jumping around on top of a row of desks to ‘ get the angles right ‘ people would try to have me fired but YOU get away with it! ‘
Its Tough all right on human Rights over there .. BUT we have to start somewhere and the Arts is probably as good a place to begin as any. Human Rights is a pretty novel concept even in the West, and as for Democracy ?
Well in central Newcastle Upon Tyne there is a Monument that thanks Earl Grey ..yes HE of Tea .. for his role in the passage of the …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reform_Bill
It’s Momentum really .. if you stop to think of how you do it you’d fall off the Canyon like Wile E. Coyote ..save that given the condition of my spine I couldn’t hope to bounce at the bottom of the canyon.
Certainly the place to begin would be at a local level but Political reality being as it is there would have to be political support in the PR of China and in the USA. But, given that .. why not ? It’s possible that the ambitious proposer would .. fall off the Desks ? .. but would it be worth the risk given that it is a WORLD convention?
I offer it as a Stray Thought that is not entirely un-influenced by a stiff dose of prescribed painkillers.